Talk: Burning Hells

Burning Hells vs The Burning Hells

For the sake of consistency with the rest of the wiki, might I suggest moving this page to The Burning Hells? Any reason not to? -- Erik Siers 20:16, September 23, 2010 (UTC)

This should be updated to include Azmodan as the ruler of The Burning Hells. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 86.128.251.176 (talk · contr).

To Hell and Back

To Hell and Back is a poor source of lore, especially after so many retcons. Currently, there is no explanation for what happens to the souls of the dead, but they certainly do not go to Hell for bad deeds. In addition, the division into higher and lower levels like from Dante's Comedy, which is not confirmed in lore books (where do these exact numbers about the distance of individual levels come from?). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terede (talk · contr).

All of that comes from THAB. While it's dubious in some areas, none of what you've written above is outright contradicted. The only iffy thing is souls, but the key word is "some souls." Most human souls, by current lore, go to a place beyond Heaven or Hell.Hawki (talk) 05:22, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Whether "some souls" or "all souls", the text still imply that since they are the "bad guys" fighting ruthless battles in the mortal world, they go to the Burning Hells to reside there. It's simply not true. Souls can only go to Hells as a result of a pact or imprisonment by a demon (by force or trickery) or possibly by dying in there.

Again, in no lore book are the Burning Hells divided into levels, and there are no exact distances between their borders. THAB should be treated like any other old lore text: untrue. The same applies to such information as Lilith being the mother of Andariel or Inarius leaving the High Heavens to build himself a cathedral of mirrors and crystals. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terede (talk · contr).

On the subject of souls, "The souls of the most ruthless and corrupt mortal warriors to die in mortal wars often come to reside in Hell." This is a direct quote. To claim that this has been invalidated, you'd need something definitive.

On the subject of Hell, "Each level of Hell exists in a void 200 feet below the previous level." Again, this is a definitive statement. While it's true that the borders shift between realms, this is a reference to levels - as in, each level of Hell as one descends. There's not really a contradiction here.

New lore generally supersedes old lore, but the difference is that Lilith being Andariel's mother is incompatible with her current backstory, there's nothing in the above pieces of information that's outright superseded. "Old lore text" is a subjective definition as well.Hawki (talk) 14:03, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

On the subject of souls:

It is interesting to note, before we begin delving into the Burning Hells and High Heavens, that not all things assumed of them are true.

For instance, there were cults which reigned in the period between what we now know as the Sin War and the Dark Exile (both of which I will discuss later). It was believed by some that the High Heavens and the Burning Hells were places where the souls of men went when they died — that men either were rewarded for their virtues (the High Heavens), or received punishment for their failings (the Burning Hells). Aside from the unfounded beliefs of various cults, there is nothing in academia to support this. It is important that the reader understand that the High Heavens and the Burning Hells, much like the realm of Pandemonium, are actual, physical locations in the universe.

Personally, I believe that there exists a place where the souls of men go after their death, but that discussion is beyond the place of this treatise.

— Book of Cain, The Eternal Conflict, p. 16-17

On the subject of Burning Hells:

As we have now briefly introduced the hierarchy of Hell, it is time to explore each individually. We shall focus also upon what is known of the Evils' domains in Hell. It is interesting to note here that the borders of their domains are constantly shifting as the boundaries within the Hells crash into and encroach upon one another. Judging by the texts and accounts, it is as if the borders themselves are in conflict.

— Book of Cain, The Prime Evils, The Lords of the Burning Hells, p. 21

The Hell and Back is the only source in which the Burning Hells are divided into levels, while in the games themselves many of the locations there have multiple levels themselves, such as the domain of Azmodan, which we explore in Diablo III. In addition, Cain's words about borders support the existence of domains on one plane:

border:

noun

the part or edge of a surface or area that forms its outer boundary.

the line, limit, or delimiting geographic feature that separates one country, state, province, etc., from another

— dictionary.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terede (talk · contr).

I'm are of the Book of Cain stuff, the info's been added where appropriate (e.g. the soul article). It's not an outright contradiction, because clearly not every soul ends up in Hell (and we've never seen any end up in Heaven), but clearly, some souls do - there's the Oblivion Knight lore (from THAB and Arreat Summit), there's the Wraith lore (again from Arreat Summit), there's Eskara (whose soul is dragged to Hell in Immortal where you fight her again), etc. Clearly, there's means of souls ending up in Hell, even if it's not based on good/evil deeds ipso facto.

Concerning levels, you're conflating them with borders. Nothing about Hell being divided into geographic levels negates the shifting borders of the realms.Hawki (talk) 21:39, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

The descriptions of the Wraith, Oblivion Knight and Eskara suggest that they are human souls placed in the Burning Hells, while the current lore books confirm what I wrote earlier: souls can be trapped by force or trickery, and bound by pact, but by themselves, for evil deeds, do not go to the Burning Hells, because those are not the afterlife.

Perhaps wrongly, but I took "level" to be a kind of floor, whereas all the descriptions suggest that Hell is rather "flat" and the domains are side by side and hence shifting and overlapping boundaries between them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terede (talk · contr).

Again, I'm not sure what conflict you're citing. Most souls go elsewhere, some souls, like the ones you cited, end up in Hell through whatever means. There's not really a conflict here. Exceptions don't disprove the rule.Hawki (talk) 09:11, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

From the very beginning, I say that according to the article, the soldiers were sent to Hell for eternal damnation, implying that this was a punishment for their actions, which sounds like taken straight out of the Catholic Church's teachings on hell, not from the lore itself which denies that Hells or Heavens are the afterlife. I want to change this text to be clear rather than ambiguous and to match the current lore::

Hell is rife with war, both external and internal. Not only demonic forces are involved in these conflicts, but also the souls of mortals. Many of these souls fell victim to demonic deception, some were sold in pacts for the promise of power, and some were captured in battle, among them (the souls of) the most ruthless, hate-filled and aggressive soldiers of mortal wars.

I would also like to replace THAB's description of Hell with that from the Book of Cain and also get rid of the absurd claim according to which there are some specific distances between the domains, which contradicts the fact that the boundaries between them overlap, and above all replace the word "level" with "domain" to make it sound less RPG, and more like lore.

I'm actually surprised that the article includes a description of Hell from a probably non-canonical source, and not from the latest, i.e. from the Book of Cain. I don't know if it's worth the trouble, but I'll contact the community manager and ask them to find out if these old sources are still canon. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terede (talk · contr).

Again, there's no contradiction between the old lore and current lore here, you're making up conflict where none exists. You're also inserting information that THAB never claims (e.g. souls falling prey to demonic deception - THAB never states this, even if it's true in of itself).

Levels, not realms/domains. You're conflating the realms of Hell with the geography of Hell.Hawki (talk) 20:35, 24 March 2023 (UTC)

You claim that the arguments I have presented from the CURRENT lore do not contradict THAB, yet you have removed them in favor of outdated sources which are most likely non-canon. There is no described geography of Hell in any current lore, nor are there any "levels", but there are descriptions of each of the domains and their boundaries.

The footnote to THAB referred to the soldiers who are supposedly condemned to eternal damnation in Hell. The previous part of the text referred to the fact that souls must be captured by demons or sacrificed to them in order to go to Hell, including trickery as was done in Kingdom of Shadow when Diablo, pretending to be an archangel, tried to trick the inhabitants of Ureh into teleporting to Hell. I wrote this to make the text clear and not falsely imply that Hells are the afterlife for evil people.

Again, I can see that arguing with you makes absolutely no sense and is just a waste of time. It's a pity that the Diablo Wiki is still run by closed-minded people and therefore full of ambiguous and outdated information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Terede (talk · contr).

Info has been removed from the main bodies of articles when it's all but confirmed as non-canon, that's true. The difference is that you're insisting that there's a contradiction here, when there isn't. If information from THAB is ever superseeded, then it will be treated as such, same as Book of Cain, same as anything. Information doesn't become non-canon just because of the length of time that's passed. If that was the case, all of D1 would be less canon than THAB for instance.

I've already quoted the text about soldiers, there's no mention of any trickery in the Oblivion Knight entry. That Diablo tricked the people of Ureh is a separate point - neither of these pieces of lore are in conflict. Nothing in the article implies that Hell is an afterlife, it's simply stating a given fact that, as of yet, has not been superseeded. Also, you're employing a potential double standard by being happy to cite Kingdom of Shadow as canon, yet not To Hell and Back, especially since Kingdom of Shadow was published only one year later.

Concerning the geography of Hell, I haven't removed any information describing it. That Hell is divided into seven realms (eight as of Immortal) is within the article, as is that its level aspect to THAB. There's no contradiction here. You seem to be operating under the assumption that if any landmass is divided into different pieces of territory, the geography shifts with it.Hawki (talk) 07:12, 25 March 2023 (UTC)